Are the Sith Really Evil?

[Rugs]

You know, for someone that I thought understood storytelling and story structure pretty well, you're missing the point rather badly.

The question is are sith really evil, yes? It's a question of what they are at their core. The answer is that yes, within the confines of the Star Wars narrative, the Sith are evil. Sometimes these evil people want to do good things, but good intentions and noble goals do not make you a good person by default.

Layers can be added onto that core of a character, but you have to know what they are to truly be able to make them real, and make them believable.

No one here is saying that evil characters have to constantly bomb orphanages or eat kittens or punt children through football goals while yelling 'LOOK AT HOW EVIL I AM'. Characters that are evil for evil's sake and that alone tend to be poorly written and Stupid Evil. The best characters--good or evil--are those that have believable goals and motivations, fueled by writing that can get you to feel something toward them, whether they're meant to be empathized with, or whether you're supposed to see them as Complete Monsters and hate their guts.

You keep trying to respond to a point that no one here is making. Besides, your own heroes and villain characters have hardly been ambivalent. Shard, for example, was a pretty blatant villain and very clearly evil, but he worked well within the context of what he was: a villain.

Loki is pretty obviously a villain and evil in Thor and The Avengers, but that doesn't make him a poor character; on the contrary, he's one of the best-written in those movies.

[Poludnica]

I think what could be done is separating the issue onto two different levels. If you guys are discussing on storyteller, the universe's level : Imo Sith are evil because that was Lucas' intention. It's a fact.

But maybe some try to go onto more meta and real world level and there is whooole psychology and philosophy of good and evil. From Decartes through Nietzsche to recent experiments done by Zimbardo. On this level such discussion would be interesting but a bit pointless in terms of SW universe since it has different rules, rules set to define corruption.

Still this corruption may vary, hence I'd rather judge the actions of a charrie rather than the quality of good and evil in it. Or toy with bending those rules for storytelling purposes. So maybe it's closer to this: discussion on SW universe storytelling quality and a discussion on determinism of evil (also its definition) and general intellectual crap I am not touching with ten ft. pole >.> Because then it would go to morality and that often starts problems since everyone got their own. Which sometimes can lead someone to make "you are lawful stupid !" judgements and things get awkward.

So yep...storywise Sith as an order with their code are evil because in SW there is clearly defined evil. Though I encourage playing with the concept nonetheless and experiment with pushing some boundaries for single charries.

[Apillis]

May 15, 2012 12:20:16 GMT -5 Karl the Unfettered said:

Black and white is so damn boring. I prefer some ambivalence in my heroes and villains.

Well, whatever.

I had a response. But then I found, it was just me basically repeating everything Rugs already posted. So, I'm just going to say:

[Jenno]

May 15, 2012 15:32:44 GMT -5 Poludnica said:

I think what could be done is separating the issue onto two different levels. If you guys are discussing on storyteller, the universe's level : Imo Sith are evil because that was Lucas' intention. It's a fact.

But maybe some try to go onto more meta and real world level and there is whooole psychology and philosophy of good and evil. From Decartes through Nietzsche to recent experiments done by Zimbardo. On this level such discussion would be interesting but a bit pointless in terms of SW universe since it has different rules, rules set to define corruption.

Still this corruption may vary, hence I'd rather judge the actions of a charrie rather than the quality of good and evil in it. Or toy with bending those rules for storytelling purposes. So maybe it's closer to this: discussion on SW universe storytelling quality and a discussion on determinism of evil (also its definition) and general intellectual crap I am not touching with ten ft. pole >.> Because then it would go to morality and that often starts problems since everyone got their own. Which sometimes can lead someone to make "you are lawful stupid !" judgements and things get awkward.

So yep...storywise Sith as an order with their code are evil because in SW there is clearly defined evil. Though I encourage playing with the concept nonetheless and experiment with pushing some boundaries for single charries.

The question you're addressing more there appears to be, to me, the issue of weather humans are inherently good or evil. Whilst it is very much a whole grander subject that doesn't in most cases relate to the issue raised in this thread since it seems to be more about the regard of story and perception of the fictitious group of people, there are similarities to be drawn. Take for example, Zimbardo and the experiment of his you mentioned, that was a great deal to do with power, a fact which is quite easily associated with the Sith. On some level it seems to be that when people give into their primal desires, because man is just another animal, they become selfish and aggressive (a good example of this is when you consider our ancestors, the cave men with clubs and excessive hair and how their simplistic way of being is quite easily comparable to other wild animals).

Now how does that relate to the Sith? Very clearly, especially when you compare them to the Jedi. The Sith are very much about feeling all their emotions, freeing themselves of their chains and in essence, giving into their animalistic nature. The Jedi on the other hand see the natural way in which people are essentially evil if there is no form of control. That is why they attempt to shut themselves off from a great deal of their emotions (though this causes a major backlash when someone falls because there is such a build up of desire to feel such things). Now, of course, there are Sith who attempt to or claim to control the Dark Side, this is a very commonplace aspect. To some degree, in every day walking and talking they might be able to control themselves. But once they give into their emotions in the heat of a situation such as combat, it becomes increasingly difficult to control themselves whilst still tapping into their power. And when they are at their strongest, there is no control, just a wild beast driven by basic desires.

In terms of reality, I doubt there's a single person in the planet who doesn't experience/feel hatred, anger or a desire to do something that people would consider harmful or cruel. Does everyone go through with these acts? Well if they did, we'd never get anything done, it would be a world full of more destruction and violence than there is already. People resist these natures, instead they attempt to control themselves so that they can co-exist peacefully with one another. But there are times when people slip, a lot of people, when they're pushed past their limits of control and they do or say things that, once they've calmed themselves down, nobody, including they themselves, might have thought they would ever do.

Generally good and evil is not something you can label onto a person solely, because in most cases it's doubtful that everyone was/is 'evil' their entire lives, time is a factor. People do bad things, people do good, you could be both throughout your life. It all comes down to desire and control.

And I'll stop myself there with that as I feel I could talk for an age on this stuff. So to the actual question:

Yes, the Sith are evil, they do evil, they choose to be evil. If they fall from one event and remain a Sith? Still evil. The Dark Side is often referred to as addictive (the rush of power, doing whatever you desire, what's not to like?), so let's run with that a little bit. If a person does drugs (evil deeds) time and time and time again, he is a drug addict (an evil doo-er), if they first got hooked because friends pressured them or because bad things were going on in their lives, does that make them not a drug addict? Nope. They first made the choice, or allowed the desire, or the pressure to take control of them. You can tell me a tale of woe about how they became an addict or how they are victims, but so long as they're doing drugs they're an addict.

I hope folks followed the links there between different words/aspects. People have basically said all that, I just tried to squash it down and put it in some sort of analogy.

But yea, not to say that Sith, being cast under the phrase of all being evil, can't be amazing characters. There's two parts to making a good villain (lessons I could do to learn myself). The first part is to give the character a good back story, most likely it will involve tragedy, but so long as it's interesting and understandable to the point that readers go 'yes, I can understand why this and that led to him being the man/villain he is today'. The second thing, is about nailing them a villain vibe for when you are writing them, when they are taking part in the story. Sharp, intelligent, cunning, brutish, wild, are but a few very basic ways of describing villains. Some of the best villains aren't the ones who obviously act villains in front of others either, take Iago from Othello, a magnificent example of a cunning villain, he whispers in ears and makes others act and take the fall, the way his intentions go unnoticed is a chilling spectacle as he nears closer and closer to enacting his desires.

Dress them up (and please do, because well-written villains are highly enjoyable characters) but Sith are just evil junkies.

I'm kinda proud at how brief I kept this, could literally write tens and tens and tens of pages about this.

[starkiller]

The sith are heroes trying to fend off the Evil Jedi EMPIRE!!! XD