No greater Hive of Scum and Villainy...

[projectsunfire]

Hello new members and old. Im sure my absence has angered alot of you, unfortunately I can't say I am coming back with a vengence. So many of you who may be new will likely be wondering just who this strange moff is. At least for now. I would however like to devote a little time to enriching your roleplaying lives by starting this little thread.

What makes a truly epic Villain. Is it their cruelty? Their strength? Their ruthlessness? Is their violence random? perhaps they are one of the many shades of gray that roam many systems within the star wars universe.

Are they faceless mass murderers whose good nature and love have been driven out of them, like Darth Vader? Were they once noble jedi knights who have taken up a selfish cause?

My question is what makes an epic Villain? Discuss, and please be serious.

[10Tickler]

The Thing that makes a Villain truly "Villainous" in my Opinion is a sense of Moral Superiority. Someone so COMMITTED to their Views that they have taken the path of Darkness to achieve their Goals, to change the world/Galaxy/Whatever that they are willing to lose all face value

[projectsunfire]

(Main question)-Would that mean that the goal of the villain is as important as the personality of the villain themselves?

(Speculation)-Or can a villain be aimless? Can they push forward in a random manner simply being destructive, or does their behavior require a design to make them truly nasty?

[10Tickler]

The personality, the Villain needs something to push him forward, his Goal, but at the same time, his personality determines how he acts in situations and whether he's a villan or not. Look at Rorschach.

Also, an Aimless person causing destruction would be, in my opinion, someone more likely of being mentally incapable of changing their ways, a Schizophrenic, etc.

[Jenno]

Hmm, well, I have to say that I have no real direct answer in response to your question, I don't think there's one lone aspect which would make an 'epic villain', as you put it.

I do enjoy the kind of villain which Eclipse has suggested, the kind with an intention to change things for the better and is also willing to sacrifice pretty much anything in order to see their vision come to fruition. It's my interest in this kind of villain which inspired my creation of Iniquitous.

However, those who do not follow this pattern also often interest me. In fact, some of the darkest, twisted and most wicked characters do not follow the aforementioned character pattern. The way they kill, maim, plot and scheme sometimes just for fun can make a book/show/film extremely interesting, simply because their lack of morals allows them a free reign of terror without much internal draw backs.

The closest thing I would have to say which leads to these great characters, however, is their history. This is really the closest thing to an answer I can come up with. No matter how they turn out, emotionless and uncaring for their world or striving to make changes yet sacrificing a part of themselves in trying to do so, or simply someone driven to inflicting pain on the happy and content, I think history is everything. How did they get to be that way, what events in their past drove them to the point they are at now, and will continue to drive them.

This is mainly th reason I take so long coming up with my character bios, I have to try and reason why my bad guy would be bad, why another character would have fallen to drink and gambling. Even with the sadistic, something in their past would have triggered their extreme actions in some form.

For me, history is everything. Without history their is no reason and without reason they're only a failing villain in my eyes.

History can make the difference between an interesting villain and an epic villain.

At least, that's what I believe.

~Jenno

[projectsunfire]

Rorschach is a good example of a shade of gray character. Neither good nor bad. "Porter" played by Mel Gibson in the movie payback is another good example of a shade of gray character.

So now another question comes up.

What is a Villain. Are they somone who is simply opposed to the faction you represent? Or is there something inherently evil about certain characters?

Jenno makes a good point.

Again to use Rorschach, he was horribly abused as a child, which comes out in the way he views the world and goes about his business. Would that also be applied to a villain.

If you were playing a Protaganist would you be able to destroy an Antagonist if you knew their motivations, or their history?

Do Villains have empathy, or sympathy? Or is that reserved only for Protaganists?

[projectsunfire]

So, as with any held together character. A Characters history remains key to their developement and plausability. Thinking about ones character in depth, their psychology, and their life experiences and the results of those interactions remain extremely important.

I have found some of the most epic of Villains (and this applies to heroes as well) are conflicted about whats right and whats wrong and the thing that truly makes them Villainous or Heroic is the last second decision they make, and weather the choice is beneficial, or detrimental.

A good example would be Han Solo's decision to help Luke destroy the deathstar in A New Hope. Or Anakin Skywalkers decision to aid the emperor in the destruction of the Jedi to save Padme's life.

Solo chose an unselfish path and helped luke save the rebellion, while Anakin betrayed all those that trusted him and began a career involving genocide, cruelty, and general naughtiness.

However Vader (Anakin) found redemption in his betrayal of the Emperor.

Lets have a little chat about him.

Emperor Palpatine. Senator, Chancelor, Emperor, Lord Sidious. Many names, and faces of a man whose twisted thoughts and appetites are something I find my mind still chews on now and again.

He has an obvious superiority complex. Viewing even his closest subordinate (Vader) as a tool of his will.

Some of the faces he makes in Revenge of the Sith as he fights Mace Windu, I think capture a far more mature sickness within the character. Something I would almost liken to herbert from Family guy. (Hey children, we can settle this like sexy teenagers) Its something a pg-13 movie series like Star Wars can't really address, or explore. Not that we'd want them to or anything, but its there. Watch for it the next time you decide to watch the prequals.

Whats your take on Palpatine?

[avoim]

I think a good villan is described not only by his power, but by his ruthlessness, the ability to get things done, and by how he leads his troops, either by force or by inspiration, or a combination of both, but the most important is the uncertantity of if they can be defeated.

[Mara]

For me, a truly evil villain is the person you least expected to be the bad guy. I mean, there are some characters just by looking at them, you know they're evil. But I think it's the ones you don't expect, the ones that surprise you... for me that makes them truly evil.

But also, I believe that no villain can be 100% evil anyway. They all have flaws (in the case of a bad guy, a flaw is good).

[Synth]

Nice and interesting topic. o:


In my humble opinion, I believe Sidious had a desire for power that transcended morality. Isn't 'evil' defined by what is morally incorrect according to culture and the culture's taboos? In SW, negative emotions are considered pathways to the Dark Side, and the dark side is considered 'evil'. This is canon, alright. Wouldn't evil be a corruption of what is good? The desire to corrupt what is good would be what makes a villain, imo. Meanwhile, there are villains that strive for one goal while not being inherently evil according to their own standards or opinions, some don't realize what they do is 'wrong' according to society. Some do.


Palpatine, imo, was smart; though he believed himself to be a sort of messiah for the galaxy filled inferior beings, which he considered them to be, that could not walk on their own. \

[Kella]

I think, first of all, what makes a Villian is his or her history. (As aforementioned) With every extreme character trait, there has to be an extreme event behind it, be it abuse, neglect, regret, etc.

The way I see it, an insane villain might be perceived as more 'evil', but if his mind is truly broken, it was not a choice. True villainy lies in choice; just as true heroism does. A villain looks at an issue, a problem, an obstacle, and says; 'I shall do that." And so he does. There cannot be true villainy where there is no choice.

Selfishness also defines a villain, and in that, lust for power. If you break it down, many pivotal decisions can be traced back to a conflict between selfishness and selflessness. For example, Anakin chose to cave the the Emperor to save Padme; a selfish decision because he put the whole galaxy at risk for the sake of his emotional state. Granted, he had an intense fear of loss, but we all know what Yoda says about fear.

I think the most epic villains are the ones who are sympathetic. There are those who are simply interesting; whose minions we like to kill, whose favorite occupation is wreaking havoc on the less powerful. They're amusing, but not epic.

The most epic villains are the ones we can identify with. The ones whose history we can look at and say, 'If I were there... I'd probably have done the same thing.' And that is what makes a villain truly unsettling... because that sort of villain makes us question who we are. Would we have the will to act differently, or would we fall to the same fate?
Darth Vader was such a villain.
The most moving and memorable villains are the ones whose history saddens us, makes us feel s they do, makes us face the atrocities and horrors of the world. For so often, the road to villainy is paved with good intentions.
Even so, each Villain must've had a chance at redemption... whether they really stay with us, and truly become epic, depends on whether or not they accept that chance at reconcilliation, no mater now late.
For when a villain reconciles, we too find hope; for surely if they find forgiveness, so can we, in our mild villainies. But I digress. ;P

Personality, to an extent, lends a person to be more or less likely to become a villain. However, Personality is usually shaped by history. So, it could be argued that villains are not born villains... they have villainy thrust upon them.

The least sympathetic, but quite awesome villains are the power-hungry ones. They usually start out well-meaning. Heads of companies... politicians. but then their thirst for power gets the better of them. They absorb more and more of it, 'for the good of the people', 'for the betterment of society'! And then the facade crumbles. And it turns out that all along, they just wanted the power. Their image now in shambles, they just take over the Galaxy. ;D like Palpatine! to an extent.
The most epic villains have minions... lots of minions... ;D

[Mr.Bøbert]

I'd have to say that a true villain would be someone who has no mercy, who will stare into the eyes of his victim, laugh, and kill them. Palpatine was one who could do this. He was a brilliant mastermind as well. He also sacrificed billions, if not trillions of lives during the Clone Wars just so he could gain power, and eventually take over the Republic.