The Immortal Eldar, A Custom Race

[Ashi]

Summary and Random Notes: Essentially, there are nature loving immortals who had their homes destroyed by the sith. Their immortality is limited in that it only protects from old-age and disease (essentially, they have a metabolism that is fast enough to replace cells at the same rate (or faster) than they're lost via normal means. They also have an enhanced immune system, which produces, among other things, antimicrobials, and antiviral agents) not the weapons of war. You shoot them or cut them to pieces, they'll still die.

Due to this immortality, however, this race will be extremely limited (even before the mods get ahold of it). I, personally, will request a minimum of twenty thousand words in the history of every char that uses this race (this does not include things like the appearance and such, so you're not getting away with using shortcuts like that). I will also be reading all of these, and correcting people if stuff doesn't add in their history.

I will also be discussing stat limitations with several mods and otherwise intelligent people, centered around the fact that even an immortal can't remember everything, and they sure as hell aren't staying in practice with all that they know.

Furthermore, you have to realize they don't see red hues well. red usually appears grey to them, and a red light creates little more than a dim outline of objects it's directly shining on. To make up for this, they do have rather significant sight in the UV ranges, but before you can start talking about that I suggest you look it up on wikipedia. It's nowhere near as simple as you'll instinctively think.

This race is also very, very patient. A very impatient Eldar would be about the same as a jedi master who practices soresu and nothing else in terms of patience. They're not brash and fiery, or if they are, they've thought long and hard about it. The average Eldar, even after the Sith destruction of their homeworld, is about 30 thousand years old. To them, this age is about the same as being 30 years old from a human perspective. Their younger years progress and develop faster, however, meaning that by the time they're about a hundred, they're about the same as a twenty year old human. Their society also revolves around this, so a fast and sudden change happens in about fifty years. As you read the history, you'll notice that most of the time I'm using the measurement millenia. This is the root of the word millennium, guess how long that is? To them, a normal, progressive change (rather like the political and societal changes that have happened in the US during the past fifty years or so) would take between five hundred and one thousand years, possibly even longer.

Also recall, they're not stupid people. If they piss somebody off, it's going to be deliberate and intended. Their society revolves around being polite to one another, since pissing someone off generally means they're angry for a great many years.

Finally, they are really strong. We're not talking, 'oh I want to pick up this ten ton iron weight and do bench presses' but neither are we talking 'my god this 300 lb (140 kilos, give or take a bit) barbell is so heavy it's going to kill me'. Genetically, they evolved on a world about 4 times heavier than Coruscant, meaning they're about four times as strong as a human. If you intend to RP these characters well, you must include this aspect. You're not going to go running up to an old lady and give her a bear hug, you'd literally kill her. You'd walk up nice and slow, give her a very gentle squeeze, and so on. Despite their age, most of their time is spent both in a high gravity environment and with their own people, meaning that they're going to have to rethink and retune this sense every time they leave their homeworld.


Essentially, if you're going to RP this race, you've got to be good, accounting for every single aspect that makes them better and worse than humans in every-day life, let alone in combat. You've got to be patient enough to think things thru, and you've also got to think about the mindsets a char like this is going to have.

Racial Name: Eldar (possessive: Eldarian)
Home Planet: Eldar
Average Height: ~182 cm (about 6'3") for males, ~170 cm (about 5'11") for females
Average Weight: ~ 120 kilos (about 270 lbs) for males, 100 kilos (about 220 lbs) for females
Appearance:
i24.photobucket.com/albums/c35/dhawerdaverda101/RP%20Chars/117725_1176375493_large.jpg
The Eldar are a curious race. Having evolved from water breathing mammals, they retain a natural grace. It's unknown how or why this happened, even to the Eldar themselves. As they evolved on a high-grav world the eldar have, via genetics, a very high-muscle mass and a very dense bone structure. Coupled with their disconcerting grace, this makes for a very unusual combination when visiting non-Eldarian worlds. Their height, commented on by several species, further cements the idea of grace, making even several well-known dancers jealous. Worse for those dancers, however, an Eldar will never loose their youthful curves, another point of significant contention with virtually ever species.

One final point of note, is another unusual adaptation brought about by their underwater ancestors. They have the ability to photoluminescence at will (in other words, they can glow at will). The Eldar have never truly come to understand why this phenomena has come about, but the theories brought up by their leading geneticists and biologists suggest that they originally used this as either a defense mechanism, causing problems with a predator's ability to see, or a a lure, for the small fish and other small animals to eat. The second theory holds more merit in most academic circles, seeing as how most of the deep-water predators don't have eyes, but more vocal groups supporting the first have brought up the idea that maybe they don't have eyes as a result of being continually being blinded. among the scientific community of the eldar, this debate has reached a stand-still.


Details on the homeworld: The planet Eldar orbits a blue supergiant star at about 350 million miles (about 590 million km). The gravity of this world is about four times that of Coruscant, resulting in a moderate increase in surface pressure and other classically noteworthy occurrences. The only moderate increase in pressure (which is about 7 psi) over 'normal' atmospheres is due to the fact that the Eldarian planet doesn't have as much atmosphere as most Terran planets. The gravity, coupled with a slightly higher (by about 2%) presence of oxygen, counter this thinner atmosphere, resulting in a relatively normal environs, save the gravity and blue star. It should also be noted that the atmosphere of Eldar has only a limited Ozone layer.

The plant life on this planet is mostly green, absorbing extensive amounts of the UV radiation put out by their star and using it to support the 'normal' range of herbivores, omnivores, and carnivores. In an unusual turn of events, a number of animals evolved with red camouflage resulting in being virtually invisible to those unable to see in red and IR wavelengths. To those who are able to see in these wavelengths, the animals are brightly colored and easy to spot, which makes for a decent demand in zoos and other popular attractions.

The surface of the planet is only about 35% water, with most of this running in rivers and streams, and a small ocean of about 1.5 kilometers in depth. A continual cloud cover is broken but occasionally, which results in a significant hot streak for a few days, before it is closed by more clouds due to evaporating water. All life on the planet has adapted to this, however, and retreats into their respective shelters to avoid the worst of the heat. Sentient life here has grown to dislike an open view of a star, but at their colonists have proved, they can live without the continual cloud cover they are so fond of. During their stays in these environments, they will usually wear dark glasses during the day and prefer to go out only at night, where their acclimation to dimmer lighting is generally better adhered to.

History: The Eldar have a long, long history. They were originally, as their scientists suspect, water breathing mammals. They fed on small fish whom they lured using their photoluminescence. They crawled from their oceans more than sixty million years before humans called Coruscant home. As time passed, they grew tall and proud, towering over the predators who stalked them. Their homeworld orbited a blue star, nearly on the inner edge of the habitation zone. As such, their eyes were adapted to seeing well into the UV spectrum. To them a while light had virtually no effect on their night-vision, similar to how red lights have none to human night-vision. Unfortunately, this led to predators with red camouflage.

Nearly fifty five million years after they left the ocean, the Eldarian sight range slowly grew to include, albeit barely, the reds that most species enjoyed. Now able to see it, the eldar slowly grew to understand the concepts of fire and it's uses. After this their technology began to progress rapidly. Their stone age ended almost overnight, as the new invention was spread from tribe to tribe, and they learned how to make the fire brighter. The value of metals was learned, allowing them to create better tools and implements to farm with. In the course of little more than a millenia, they had already developed nuclear warheads.

This most recent development of the Eldar proved nearly fatal. With the advent of nuclear technology came the concept of superiority. Previously, most technology had been shared completely with other tribes, resulting in a prosperous whole. But when they developed these weapons, they developed the means to use them. New aircraft specifically dedicated to warfare. New missiles, capable of launching these warheads and causing significant damage, even across continents. Due to their orbiting a blue star, the Eldar were largely resistant to UV and (albeit to a lesser extent) gamma radiation. Even without these devastating side-effects, the nuclear revolution caused mass extinctions on their homeworld.

To survive the artificial nuclear winter they had wrought upon themselves, the Eldar built extensive underground bunker networks around a series of fusion reactors. For nearly three hundred years they stayed underground, slowly awaiting the time they could arise. so bad was the damage they had wrought. During this time they reseeded their planet, slowly letting the specifically engineered life flourish. As they moved back to the surface, the Eldar scientists who had designed and manufactured the plants and animals that now inhabited their world, slowly shifted their attention to the Eldarian genome.

Six hundred years passed. The Eldar had finally mastered their genome. Gone were the fears of normal life, the fear of disease and plague. Gone was the fear of death, for even that had been overcome, to some extent. With the scientists now having mastered genetics, and all new children being born with this new genome, there was no need for them anymore. Ironically, the created destroyed the creators.

Another hundred years passed. The Eldarian society had started a long change to adapt itself to the new living arrangements. Since nobody died, save from starvation, thirst, or intentional killing, there was a constant power struggle. For the next millenium, politics dominated the Eldarian society. It is interesting to note, however, that the eventual victor of this political warfare was the technocrats. More than anything else, this changed their future.

The technocrats were an interesting party. In virtually everything, they held a policy of mediocrity. They felt that peace was better, but war was a necessity. They felt that law should be enforced only when it affected others, not just the one who caused problems for themselves. But most of all, they felt that research into all forms of technology would save their race. Once more, information about nearly everything that could be imagined was freely given to all, the only difference being the medium.

Another few hundred years passed, resulting in the advent of the hyperdrive. Unlike most races, this was not developed out of romance, or a drive to explore, it was developed out of practicality. By now, with a population of nearly ten billion, the leaders of the the Eldar were concerned with running out of room. Their first ships were small, holding ten to twenty people, as they explored the galaxy around them. Habitable worlds popped up occasionally, resulting in the need for larger colony vessels. Still nearly a millenium before humanity chased the Taung from Coruscant, the Eldar started their first colony world. Not surprisingly, as often happens with the first of anything, the colony fell apart. A dissident faction, previously hidden among the ranks of the technocrats, hijacked the ship, only to find that there was but a single destination programmed into the navigational computer. Having little choice, they jumped there and set-up shop.

At first, the technocrats would have been more than willing to allow the dissidents to live in peace. There was no significant cause for harm or hardship, save a multi-billion credit vessel. But public opinion rose against their initial takes. The nearly hundred thousand people who were given slots aboard the colony vessel started protests, and eventually this led to the creation of their first battleship. Policing forces, long needed among the constant political upheaval on the planet, had been largely unneeded as of late, but with this resurgence of violent factions, they were re-instituted and enlarged, creating a moderately sized standing army. These troops and their recently built battleships, of which there were two, jumped away. bombarding the colony of dissidents to rubble ruthlessly.

Another millenia passed. The Eldar had slowly adjusted their government, becoming, interestingly enough, a communist society. Despite ever growing numbers, there always seemed to be plenty of everything for everyone, and thus their leaders slowly relaxed restrictions and phased out the concept of currency. Virtually everything was unrestricted in their changing society, save weapons. And Eldar, their home world, became their capital world. Much like Corellia, it had moved most of it's industry to orbit. The space that had once been filled with industrial complexes and even a number of suburbs, was levels and seeded, creating massive landscaped parks and wild-life habitats. To the immortal Eldar, their world had changed virtually over-night. Trees and forest, under brush all rose from the ashes of had once been industrialized buildings.

A relatively short while later, barely two hundred years, the Eldar encountered the Rakata. By now the Eldar had expanded to include thirty colony worlds, with a standing fleet of twenty warships and eighty small police cruisers. Their worlds continually traded with one another, passing technology and news from one planet to the next. With this new advent, the Eldar were, as a race, surprised. For nearly seventy millenia, from the time their first ancestors had crawled from the oceans, the Eldar has been alone. The development of not being such was a truly terrifying concept for many. Until then, their twenty ship navy was used only to put down rebellions, only to protect the stability of the whole.

Interestingly, no living Eldar remember the first contact between the two races. Which is not to say their genetically immortal nature is somewhat flawed. Rather, no living member remembers the contact, because none survived the encounter. A single colony ship, lightly armored and with even lighter weapons, exited hyperspace over a new world, intending to start a new colony. They were more than a little surprised, therefore, to find several dozen warships above the world, proceeding to bombard the surface of what would, much later, be called Tatooine.

This created entirely unique problems. When the three cruiser analogs responded to the distress call, the first time that code had ever been used, they found a planet of glass and the charred debris of what had been a colony vessel. In response to this, the production of military vessels, primarily their newest class of dreadnought, was increased by nearly four hundred percent. Had the Rakatan Empire not been already collapsing, there would undoubtedly have been a very costly war.

Despite their military buildup, there was relative peace in the galaxy for the next several millenia. During this time the Eldar discovered and began refining plasma weapons, and expanded their empire to fifty planets. They had also introduced a very significant limitation on births. Rather than allowing a birth virtually every one year, at least according to genetics, their entire populace of nearly a hundred billion was slowly receiving a gene treatment to increase the length of time the body used to 'recover' from the pregnancy. The actual physical recovery was done in about the same time of one year, but their body wouldn't cycle (i.e. no periods and no PMS) for over a hundred years, varying slightly due to every individual's genetic differences.

Also during this time, a second faction appeared within the ranks of the Eldar. Unlike the technologically inclined parties that had ruled the Eldar for nearly eight thousand years, this party promoted precisely the opposite. They were small, but vocal, and during the first hundred years of their existence they bought a colony ship and started a new colony farther coreward than most of the previous eldarian colonies.

This new colony held little in the way of metals, requiring the Eldar who moved their to adapt to using imported tools and equipment, on the rare occasions they used them at all. For an industrious people like the Eldar, this new planet soon grew into a resort, of sorts. Massive farms grew up, allowing people to come and work the land without the use of modern conveniences. Some of the more hard-core members of this new faction, who by now had publicly pronounced themselves the Agrarians, chose to abandon the modern life altogether, choosing instead to live in the woods that extensively coated this new world.

Two more millenia passed, with the progress of the Eldarian society starting to slow. More and more aggressively, they began to work and live in harmony with the natural worlds around them, rather than the harsh cities that had previously supported the bulk of their society. A disaster on their home planet of Eldar destroyed much of the civilized presence, and resulted once more in an environmental apocalypse. In a bold move, the Agrarian party reseeded the world with a variety of flora and fauna, in addition to much of what once held sway. They used the technocrat's extensive understanding of genetics to create new, living homes. To create buildings and parkways, even a spaceport, from nothing but the native plants. With the success of this experiment, they began using this concept elsewhere. And in very little time, from an Eldarian perspective they had virtually eliminated traditional buildings.

When the Duros finally established contact with them nearly a millenia later, they had difficulty adjusting to their new circumstances. Suddenly, from the void of space, a new race appeared, treating them, or more accurately, their technology, with reverence. Eldarian society, itself a very slow moving thing, was hit hard. With established contact with a new race, they suddenly had to deal with inter-species trade. Their small policing force had to deal with vast numbers of incoming aliens, curious to see these 'new-comers'. As they always did, however, the Eldarians adapted. Alien trade and tourism was limited to a few border colonies that were easy to enforce, with the Eldarian Navy dealing harshly with visitors elsewhere. To keep up with the demand of new vessels to patrol and new recruits to maintain order, birth control laws were lessened, and the shipyards that had surrounded the Eldarian homeworld were greatly expanded.

In turn, the need to keep the shipwrights employed resulted in an increase in ship production, which further increased the trade, resulting in, for a long while, an influx of goods, services, technology, and further knowledge brought new life to a society that had already begun a long, arduous decline. After this, their history is largely the same as the rest of the races of the republic. They never officially joined, but they had no need to. In fact, the Eldar were little more than a curiosity for most people of the republic until very recently.

During the chaos that followed the Mandalore Wars, the Eldar were chased from their strongholds, their long-held worlds. The Sith marched forth, destroying much of what the Eldar had wrought in their long existence. The massive, little known shipyards orbiting their home were repurposed for Sith vessels of war. And during the time before the Star Forge was found, they were used to build warships, replacing and upgrading vessels lost previous in their battles. The Eldarian refugees swarmed into the ailing republic.

When they returned to their home after the Jedi Civil War and much of the chaos that followed, little remained of their legacy. Their millenia of toil. Their entire society, was destroyed. The racial hate, their racial anger, has not faded in the more than three hundred years since. One thing that is never forgotten by those who've met an elf, an Eldarian, is that they had a very, very long memory. It would take far, far longer than these three hundred years to make them forget. In these three hundred years, eight hundred million survivors, of barely more than eight hundred ten million rallied, reclaiming what they could of their fallen empire. Tho they had much of the skill, and the knowledge of their forebearers, they were few in number. That which would have been their salvation was now a bane. Their genetics now limited the growth of their population.

[Meira]

Just some things that jumped out at me about the physical nature of this species:

1. With high gravity, is it not more likely that, along with more muscle mass and denser bones, that the Eldar would be shorter than your average human?

2. If their metabolism runs high enough to counter the effects of aging, would they not have to consume massive amounts of calories to keep from starving to death?

3. Their appearance is not consistent with being descendant from water breathing mamals. Looking like humans, it would be assumed that they came from primate ancestors, right? There's nothing in their appearance now that suggests water breathing descent.

4. Even if they were descended from water breathing mammals, I assume they've lost this ability to breathe under water? If this is true, then why have they not lost this bio luminescence? Does it serve any purpose in their biology now? The concept of evolution is that a species adapts by keeping traits that help them, and lose traits that hinder, or otherwise don't serve a purpose any more.

What I would think is that they either lose it altogether, or else lose the ability to do it willingly. Perhaps they only glow when they feel threatened? (which would support the idea that it was developed as a defense mechanism.)

5. Lastly, this thing with immortality concerns me. The odds of getting this approved are slim, very slim. My biggest thing is that I think you under estimate how the population grows. If these Eldars were smart, they'd have made the general population essentially sterile and would control birth rates from the very beginning. I would think a limitation of one offspring per 1000 years would be more appropriate, with campaigns for higher birth rates only cropping up after major conflicts.

And as far as how they age, I would suggest something along the lines of normal aging until a certain point (say around 25 or so) at which point their metabolism kicks into a higher gear, preventing them from growing any older (physically).

[Ashi]

Well, I agree. On pretty much every point. I purposely left it a little vague, however, because I don't know what all is going to pop up from the rest of the staff. But I'll go into a bit more detail to help clarify my thoughts on them all.

"1. With high gravity, is it not more likely that, along with more muscle mass and denser bones, that the Eldar would be shorter than your average human?"

Potentially, but we don't know. The short thing is a common philosophy because it's assumed that the planet's atmosphere would be so dense that short and stocky would be about the only way a race could grow. In this planet (which I, surprisingly, forgot to detail in the application thingy. I'll edit that in now.) The atmosphere is thin, allowing the heat created by a blue dwarf to radiate in and out effectively. So the concept of a high-pressure environs isn't really there. The second part about this is that most marine animals tend to be long and lean (or fat and chubby), with a natural grace. Which makes the height a great deal more likely.

"2. If their metabolism runs high enough to counter the effects of aging, would they not have to consume massive amounts of calories to keep from starving to death?"

No more than the average teenager. If you pay attention to biology, the body creates enough cells to replace those that it looses up until about the age of twenty, twenty one or so. After that it starts dying off, which creates subtle signs of aging as of about twenty four. The metabolic aspect of this would also be rather limited, because you're having to balance a choice between long life and a fast metabolism, which (at least according to theory and human-based evidence) would more likely cause them to die off faster.

Personally, my thoughts are the increase the life-span of the individual cells, in addition to a slight increase in the metabolism, creating a much longer term solution. But since I'm only partially versed in genetics (I focused more on plants than animals), I'm unable to provide a fully encompassing theory.

"3. Their appearance is not consistent with being descendant from water breathing mamals. Looking like humans, it would be assumed that they came from primate ancestors, right? There's nothing in their appearance now that suggests water breathing descent."

Actually, humanity is the descendent of the descendents and probably a few more of water breathing mammals. The most commonly held belief with evolution is that the amino acids that began to build complex proteins (such as DNA) began in a pool or lake, and from that water-breathing animals came first. Later, a race crawled up on land (probably several, actually, over several thousand years) and slowly began to adapt to what we're slightly more familiar with. This race has just, essentially, taken several links out of the chain and sped up the process. It makes them more similar to their ancestors, in some ways, than humans.

"4. Even if they were descended from water breathing mammals, I assume they've lost this ability to breathe under water? If this is true, then why have they not lost this bio luminescence? Does it serve any purpose in their biology now? The concept of evolution is that a species adapts by keeping traits that help them, and lose traits that hinder, or otherwise don't serve a purpose any more.

What I would think is that they either lose it altogether, or else lose the ability to do it willingly. Perhaps they only glow when they feel threatened? (which would support the idea that it was developed as a defense mechanism.)"

Yes, they have lost the ability to breathe underwater. That would have likely been part of a very early stage in their evolution. My thoughts about the bioluminescence are somewhat more complicated. For one thing, evolution doesn't always delete traits that don't have a purpose. for example, the appendix serves, at least in modern humans, very little purpose. Originally it was a way to store microbes that invaded the body and were captured by the white blood cells. With the advent of penicillin and more modern antiviral and antimicrobial agents, this is pretty much not needed anymore. But, since it is not a direct hindrance to us, and is actually a help, even if it's no longer needed, there have been no known adaptations to remove this organ having been made by the human body.

But, to deal with the topic directly at hand, rather than a side topic. Essentially, the bioluminescence started as a way to lure prey so that they could eat small fish (first paragraph). From that, it would have probably become more useful upon land, particularly since most early forms of life would likely be nocturnal (particularly on a world with this kind of makeup, it's easier to deal with cold weather than it is to deal with hot weather). This raises the use of communication. Thruout the ages, it would have undoubtedly changed. From unconscious use when happy or sad to the ability to consciously control it as sentience started to emerge and language took over. It would have very likely been one of the first forms of language, similar to how humans and most other forms of life on our world use vocal cords.

As time went on, however, other things would have been needed. You can say a lot with morse code, but anybody who uses it will tell you it's not exactly an efficient means of communicating, save that it's hard to intercept. This would have pushed the use of their vocal cords or another, similar means of communicating via sound.


"5. Lastly, this thing with immortality concerns me. The odds of getting this approved are slim, very slim. My biggest thing is that I think you under estimate how the population grows. If these Eldars were smart, they'd have made the general population essentially sterile and would control birth rates from the very beginning. I would think a limitation of one offspring per 1000 years would be more appropriate, with campaigns for higher birth rates only cropping up after major conflicts.

And as far as how they age, I would suggest something along the lines of normal aging until a certain point (say around 25 or so) at which point their metabolism kicks into a higher gear, preventing them from growing any older (physically). "

Well, think about it this way. The birth limitation has to be reasonable. From the beginning, the geneticists were thinking long term.... very long term.... This means they'd have to consider limitations and such, but they'd also have to consider that the geneticists wouldn't always be around. Just because they have free communication of scientific ideas, doesn't mean they aren't going to change in the future. Towards this end, they'd have to start with a mostly baseline template and have it reproduce quickly, mostly because their race had a history of violence. Also at the time of their inception, they were still trying to repopulate their world.

With the deaths of the geneticists, the population wouldn't know what they'd considered or thought about. What elements they'd considered important or worthy of change. And so the government would have, eventually, enacted birth control laws (probably something like one or two births per hundred years, at first).

When they started tampering with the genetics, again, they'd have another problem on their hands: They didn't know what's in space. Also during the time previous, they'd encountered the Rakata, a warlike race who destroyed one of their vessels. Knowing they had plenty of worlds they could expand onto, they would have chosen a relatively short period of time, to provide a balance between over-population and not being able to recover after a long and bloody struggle.

For the biology, however, that's essentially what it is. They grow normally for a hundred years (due to a slowed aging process, this is about to age twenty. It's also another reason why the concept of a one hundred year, and not a one thousand year, limitation would be enforced.) and then, essentially, stop. From there, the concept continues 'normally'. An interesting side-plot that I intend to introduce is also the first age-related death. One of the elders, about sixty thousand years old by now, will die. Presenting a race who thought themselves immortal with a lot of hard questions, in a time already full of problems.

[Tanis]

So...you want to take a race from a completely different sci-fi universe and somehow fit it into Star Wars?

If I may offer my opinion.

Negative, Ghost Rider.

[Kella]

Alright, be forewarned, you have unleashed my inner science geek. Much of what follows is compiled from memory, but I researched a couple things to make sure my theories were up-to-date. Thus being said... here we go. ;D

Immortal: This is, of course, a misnomer. The word immortal can be used as an adjective or noun, the main definition of which is "Not subject to death". The Eldar are subject to death. However, they are simply impervious to again and immune to most diseases. The title 'Immortal' gives the wrong impression, I'd strongly recommend changing it. If a race is as intelligent as the Eldar, they will not propagate a misnomer. In addition, mention should be made in the body of the article to the fact that are not, in fact, immortal after all. This is an important detail, and even if they don't know it, we should.

Evolution: The odds of a near-human race evolving from a water-breathing mammal are simply put, astronomical. Now, I personally do not subscribe to the theory of evolution in our own world, but that doesn't mean I can't argue its finer points. For most near-human races in SW, one of two things is true.
A) They are stated as having been evolved from primates.
B) No past is specified, implying an evolutionary bottleneck; a certain organism from which most near-human species evolved.

Now, the Eldar qualify with neither of these. Being in isolation, they would be seperated from the origins of the human race. Being evolved from water-breathing mammals, they would not appear near-human. To this I believe you countered, "This race has just, essentially, taken several links out of the chain and sped up the process." And to that, I say, 'nuh-uh'. You cannot just skip steps in the evolutionary chain. Things must progress in the proper pattern; this is how evolution works. Each and every adaptation is developed for a reason, and those reasons are not present if you skip links in the chain. Therefore, the species would have evolved MUCH more differently than a human, going from aquatic to land, to primate, to sentient.

In addition, the Appendix does serve an important and useful role. It is not necessary, but it is helpful, and that is why it has not phased out. The Appendix serves to store intestinal bacteria, important in keeping the balance and resolving/preventing different sorts of intestinal distress. So no, it's not vital. But neither is the Gal Bladder. Or the Spleen. However, they are helpful. If you show us a way that the bioluminescence is still helpful, then I think you'd be justified in keeping it.

Unnatural Grace: Just because the race is evolved from water-breathing mammals does not make it automatically graceful. In fact, quite the opposite. If an animal is adapted for movement in the water, it will not retain that same ease of movement on land. Observe many Earth-bound aquatic mammals; on land they are awkward and gangly. Penguins, walruses, seals; they're beautiful in the water, but on land, they waddle-hop-drag.

Thus being said, any grace the Eldar possess would have to have evolved after they emerged from the water, despite their aquatic nature, and not because of it.

Bioluminescence: Like squid! xD This is fine. But if your chars glow with an ethereal light, in-RP... well, I'll be moaning. A lot.

Super-Human Strength: Just because the race evolved on a planet with 4Gs, doesn't automatically make them four times stronger than humans. In fact, they would function very similarly in their respective environments. If an Eldar were to come into an environment with 1G, two main things would happen, much beyond just a bit of awkwardness:
A) Blood flow. The hearts of the Eldar would be accustomed to pumping blood against four times the resistance force. When in an environment with 1G, their hearts would continue to work at this rate. This would cause a much greater concentration of blood in the head and upper body, and a deprivation of oxygen and nutrients to lower extremities, encouraging muscle atrophy. Nausea and vomiting, vertigo, headaches, lethargy, and overall malaise... these would all be symptoms of this imbalance.
B) Muscle Atrophy. The body does not fuel processes that are not needed. It would only take a few months on a planet with 1G for an Eldar's musculature and bone structure to deteriorate enough to put it on-par with most humans. If the only reason for the musculature is gravity, then the musculature will disappear when the gravity disappears. A similar effect is felt by Astronauts in micro-gravity. An Eldar might be able to retain some muscle mass through exercise, but any extended period away from the 4G's would render them extremely weak when returning to the environment.
If you've ever ridden in one of those rides, where the centripetal force pushes you against the wall at 4G's, you know what it's like to be a 1G adapted creature on a 4G adapted planet. Inevitably, this unbalance would cause a great, great deal of stress upon the body of the Eldar, and might even cause them to become weaker than an average human, when in a 1G environment.


"Now able to see it, the eldar slowly grew to understand the concepts of fire and it's uses."
Simply becoming aware of the color Red would not alert the Eldar to the presence and uses of fire. In fact, red is only one of the many colors a fire can burn. Potassium in the fuel could cause it to burn violet, which would appear blue to the Eldar. Fire also emits heat radiation and smoke, both important properties to understanding it. In addition, your average wood-burning fire burns blue when hot, and white at its hottest. Even a simplistic society of tribal intelligence would be able to observe fire, without the aid of visibility in the Red end of the spectrum.


Gamma Radiation Resistance: Just because an organism is adapted to UV radiation, does not make them resistant to Gamma radiation. The danger of Gamma radiation is that it can slip through virtually any gap, any hole. The problems arise when the radiation corrupts the genetic data of the DNA, causing mutations which propagate as the cell multiplies, eventually leading to cancerous growths and death. Being resistant to UV radiation wont help you any; it doesn't matter if the holes in your strainer are the size of eggs, or the size of quarters, the sand it still getting through. They were still effected by the radiation, so I wouldn't ask that much more than the mention of the resistance be edited, and that it not be listed as an advantage in the future.

"To create buildings and parkways, even a spaceport, from nothing but the native plants."
For me, personally, to accept this sort of technology, I'd need a run-down of exactly how it works. Trees and plants are not adapted to withstand the weight of a landing ship, or the scorching heat given off by thrusters. Plants want to do two things: They want to grow their leaves up, and sink their leaves down. The effort required to force a plant to grow in a pre-defined pattern would be extremely inefficient. In addition, genetically engineering plants to create infrastructure could have unanticipated and detrimental effects on the natural wildlife. It would almost be more disturbing to create cities in this manner, than it would be to go the route of Alderaan, and simply choose strategic locations.

Then, of course, there's the matter of originality. If you want to RP as an elf, Ashi, why are on on a SW site? X) The point of the custom races is to bring in something new, and exciting, and different; not some long-lived, amazingly beautiful near-human race. I can direct you to some wonderful fantasy RP sites, if that's what you want to mess around with.

However, I get the feeling here that most of your plan for the species revolves around it's longevity. While getting an extremely long-lived custom race will be difficult, I think you'd have much better chances of succeeding if you bring something new. Something original. Something that isn't ripping off the elves we've come to know and love. X)

Well, that comprises most of what I have to say for now... For now. X) For this Custom Race to be accepted, I think it's going to need a great deal of overhaul...

[Ashi]

To respond to the less scientific commentary first, as is generally my wont, I'm not ripping 'em off at all. If I had intended to rip off the eldar from Warhammer or the elves from Tolkien's work, or any of the sort that is incredibly common in fantasy works, I wouldn't have bothered with this racial archetype. As you've stated, there are any number of other sites I could visit and hang out at where they've already done the work for me. I did, very much so, grab concepts and ideas from them, such as the immortality, the natural grace, and the bio buildings, but it's got it's own character now, it's own setup.

I freely admit, the concept itself lacks originality. But most of that is in it's premise, not how it's carried out.

Secondly, I love hanging out with geeks, for the simple reason that they have the capacity to think outside what is considered "normal". and I wouldn't begin to call you a geek unless you know how and when to start researching stuff (I've researched more than a little myself). I'm all the more happy to be on this site knowing that there are people who can hold an intelligent discussion.

But, let's get started with a scientific debate of some interest, shall we? I will point you first to ancient Greek mythos, one of the, if not the first known uses of the term mortal. It is also of note that the latin, from which we get somewhere on the order of 70 percent of the english language (thru the french, interestingly enough), takes and incorporates elements from greek, esspecially in terms of mythos and science, which at the time were closely related. According to a modern interpretation of the term mortal (which can be found here dictionary.reference.com/browse/mortal ) it actually means something closer to 'subject to the linear passage of time' of which death is a part. The preface 'im' means they're not subject to this. It doesn't mean they are impervious to death, several gods and goddesses in ancient mythology (in virtually all paganistic societies, to be honest) are actually killed due to varying circumstances. I believe (haven't studied mythos for a while, so I might be wrong about this) that the greeks used a blade or arrow covered in the blood of a centaur to kill their gods. I used the term immortal not because of what it's slanged into (not subject to death being the most common meaning) but because of the term's meaning as originally believed.

I retract this argument in light of further research.

Well, since you like trying to turn my arguements against me (which is a good thing) I'll turn yours against you. As primates are believed to be descended, according to the evolutionary theory at least, from a water-breathing mammalian creature. Personally I'm a creationist (not a christian, or religious at all actually) simply because the odds of evolution at all are far too high. If you want to get into the odds of evolution happening, I believe that the creation of a single strand of DNA via the normally theorized evolutionary process was compared to a tornado going thru a scrap yard and constructing a perfect 747 (including computers filled with the correct programming).

For the quote itself, however, I was referring more in line with the speed of the process, rather than actually taking points and parts out at random. In this instance, sentience was developed earlier than it was in humans, which resulted in them focusing more on building and growing earlier on in their history.

As for the grace, I'm not going to dispute that part at all. I'll point you to a variety of smaller amphibian creatures that don't loose either, however, as they're not built around highly-specialized fins and flippers. I do agree there there would be adaptation and evolution along the way in this universe, which would bring that natural grace to use within the less-resistant fluid of atmosphere, but ti would be there to begin with.

The bioluminescence is something I actually setup to go in line with the picture's absurdly unbalanced lighting. I enjoyed the concept, however, and decided to integrate it. So now they have basic communication via flashing lights and ethereal radiance. Feel free to moan all ya like, but at least it isn't a god-damned "diamond-like sparkle" like those f**king twilight books >.>

As for the strength part, you're entirely correct. There would be significant strains and problems on the body of any of this race, both coming to and leaving their home planet. The nice thing about colony worlds, however, is they give you an excuse to adapt and adjust. a mild muscular sedative relaxes the heart, and a bit more tweaking along similar lines allows for other issues to settle.

In stark contrast to that, however, I would bring forth that humans are rather likely to be one of the very few races in existence with limited control of "autonomous" functions. In fact, numerous humans have shown significant control over these functions, even to the extent that there have even been rumors among the scientific community of some that can control immune responses, their heart beats, and their metabolism. "Alternative medicine", a term coined by "medical professionals" in established scientific communities, has even been rumored to allow people direct (albeit limited) access to the subconscious mind, the part of the brain that affects these "autonomous" functions. Until we have met, understand, and have significant biological evidence to support the assumption that all alien species have a subconscious mind that governs their autonomous functions, I propose that it's rather unwise to jump to this conclusion based on evidence gathered in a human body.

On a different, yet similar, note, I'd also like to point out that the circulatory system is a pressure system. at four times the normal pressure, most pressure systems would actually rupture, rather than cause relatively mild annoyances. That being said, most of what you're assuming is based on the concept that the pressure system of the atmosphere of their home-planet is four times denser, which results in four times the pressure to fight against. I would also like to point out that gravity has an effect on a pressure system. There would actually be concentrations of blood in places such as the hands and feet, if it wasn't for the fact that this system was moving blood so rapidly.

Many of the arguments you've made here are rather contradictory to observed symtoms, whether you've made these on your own or quoted them from somewhere, that's certainly something to think about. Simply put, we don't know enough about the effects of reduced gravity by proportion (in this case, approximately 1/4) to do more than guess. At the moment, I'm trying to find the list of symptoms noted by the Apollo astronauts, as the moon is similar in gravity comparatively as the normal worlds are to them, save the atmospheric pressure (the gravity on the moon is about 17 percent that of earth, about 1/5.5 in terms of fractions. Comparatively, we want about 25%, or 1/4 relationship. The results won't be entirely accurate, but they'll be something to base the concept of lessened gravity on).

Until I can obtain information on that, please go over the effects of microgravity, as the concepts are somewhat similar: "The most significant adverse effects of long-term weightlessness are muscle atrophy and deterioration of the skeleton, or spaceflight osteopenia. These effects can be minimized through a regimen of exercise. Other significant effects include fluid redistribution, a slowing of the cardiovascular system, decreased production of red blood cells, balance disorders, and a weakening of the immune system. Lesser symptoms include loss of body mass, nasal congestion, sleep disturbance, excess flatulence, and puffiness of the face. These effects begin to reverse quickly upon return to the Earth." ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weightlessness#Health_effects_of_weightlessness )


Onto the next portion: Fire.... I love being a Piro..... Ahem, sorry, where were we? Oh, Yes: While there are types of fire that burn in other spectrums and at other wavelengths, most forms of fire burn in the lower wavelengths (such as red, orange, and IR). Now, there could be compositional differences due to the heat of the planet, or mineralogical differences due to the composition of their version of trees, but as they generally don't take this into account elsewhere in SW (I've literally never seen it mentioned in all the books, comics, and such I've read, not to mention my time on wookieepedia) I doubt that would come into play here.

As for never being able to see it, we can't see in the IR or UV wavelengths via normal means. We know they're there, we can measure them and all that, but on a practical basis we live our lives completely oblivious to it. It is more than a little likely that a tribal people most easily compared to the human Pygmies in Africa in terms of technological development are also going to live their lives oblivious to it until there is some change that might allow them to utilize it on a practical level.

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_radiation
Now then, gamma radiation does atomic (and thus cellular) damage as it's a form of ionized/ionizing radiation ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionizing_radiation ). Gamma radiation and X-rays do damage thru a combination of things, but the most problematic means is it's because it actively interacts with matter. Specifically, X-rays and Gamma-rays do damage via these three phenomina: the Photoelectric effect , the Compton effect , and Pair Production . Pair production is the most problematic (in many ways), because it destabilizes the atomic structure and creates other kinds of radioactivity, primarily in what amounts to alpha and beta rays.

Now, before you start yelling about how in-depth all this is, please look here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_sickness This link shows you the results of radiation on living tissue, and gamma radiation is a form ionizing radiation, which is the primary topic of the article. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_protection This article provides you with information on how to shield against this kind of damage, and with a star that continually emits this kind of radiation, not to mention a race that lives and evolved within it, there would naturally be a resistance to it. I'm not saying it has no effect on the race, it does. They will have a number of problems in terms of genetics, mothers bearing children will have still-births, etc. But they have a natural resistance to it, which reduces the amount of damage they take in a certain amount of time. Think of it as a naturally formed variation of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demron just not as good and fairly specific to UV, Gamma, and X-rays.

Finally we have the matter of genetic manipulated plants and animals to create various buildings and the like. First and foremost I'd like to point out Coral. It's a lovely building block for tools and other materials, even armor, should it be used properly. But that's an example of fauna, we're talking flora, aren't we? www.popsci.com/jaya-jiwatram/article/2008-08/were-going-live-trees This is an example of one setup. Taking a tree and adjusting how it grows be adjusting the environment it lives in. Secondly, a genetically modified version that doesn't reproduce and is resistant to flame would have a far more limited impact on the remains of an already genetically engineered environs than you're thinking. In fact, via bateria and similar things, you can even produce an artificial object using naturally occurring fibers and materials. Simply put, it's perfectly feasible, far more than most people think.

[Kella]

Are ye implying fault in my self-given title? Shame on ye! xD Be wary of assumptions, my dear Ashi, for they are fickle things and will not serve you well. ;)

On to business, then.

"The nice thing about colony worlds, however, is they give you an excuse to adapt and adjust. a mild muscular sedative relaxes the heart, and a bit more tweaking along similar lines allows for other issues to settle."
I was hoping you'd bring that up. ;) Because see, we still have a problem here. Simply colonizing new worlds won't solve the problem of Muscle Atrophy. The muscles will adapt to function on the level which is required of them, and will deteriorate at a rapid and predictable rate. Thus being said, even if some Eldar were to live on a planet with 1G, they would adapt to the 1G. Those who live on a 3G planet would adapt to the 3G, and so on and so forth. If an Eldari were to go from a planet with 1G, where they had been living for say, twenty years, to a planet with 4G, they would hardly be able to stand, let alone walk and function, seeing as their skeletal structure and muscles would have atrophied to the point where they were suitable for the 1G. The colonized words would, in fact, only lead to more dissimilarities between the facets of the race.

I notice that you quote the Wikipedia article on the subject. However, Wikipedia does not tell all. It is true that muscle atrophy begins to quickly resolve itself when returning to the usual 1G. However, it is important to note the effect of muscular atrophy on astronauts who have been in microgravity conditions for extended periods of time, i.e., the 6-month rotations aboard the ISS (US Astronauts usually stay for shorter periods, for, surprise surprise, heath reasons. ;) ). They return to Earth so weak that they are often unable to stand, and have to be carried away in wheelchairs. Several months of physical therapy are required for the muscles to return to normal functioning capacity after this degree of atrophy. And that's only six months. X) In addition, the effects on the skeleton are similar to the effects of osteoperosis, in that these effects cannot be cured, or reversed-- at least not to our knowledge. Which is not to say that the Eldar are incapable of resolving the malady, but it is important to note that it would cause a great deal of stress upon the entire body, a stress that should never be discounted.

Muscle Atrophy occurs due to disuse of the muscle tissue. Muscles that are not needed, Atrophy. A page about muscle atrophy and microgravity can be found here. It would be possible to develop technology to fight Muscle Atrophy. However, these methods, of their very nature would be extremely time-consuming, bulky, and impractical. One would have to simulate the effect of supporting four-times the usual weight, every moment of every day. Even astronauts, on their extensive exercise regimens, can only minimalize muscle atrophy; they still greatly feel its effects upon arriving home. While I shall not say that sustaining a simulation of 4Gs worth of strain upon the muscles is impossible, I will say that it is extremely impractical, and would get in the way of leading a decent life. X)

All this to come back to the main point, which you did not come back to in your previous parry; The Eldar would not possess strength four-times that of a human on a planet with 1G. At least, not only because of their adaptation to the 4G environment. Their strength would fluctuate in proportion to the atrophy of their muscles, and their muscles would atrophy in direct relation to their environment. Yes, perhaps they have control over subconscious functions, such as muscle mass. However, I find this point neither stable nor substantial enough to justify this degree of super-human strength.


"That being said, most of what you're assuming is based on the concept that the pressure system of the atmosphere of their home-planet is four times denser, which results in four times the pressure to fight against. "
I do believe you misunderstand my argument here, and perhaps this is my fault. X) So I shall elaborate. When an astronaut goes into space, the pressure in the cabin is kept at approximately 14.7 PSI, the same air pressure of a usual day at sea-level. The air-pressure is identical, and yet astronauts still feel the effect of having more blood in the brain and upper body, and less in the lower extremities. Even if their atmosphere was less dense, the gravitational resistance would still be present, and would still require a heart of relatively larger size and power. Sedatives could be taken to calm the heart, this is true, and so that side-effect could be somewhat nullified. However, I wanted to make sure my point was understood properly, to prevent further misconception.

And now, this brings me to another interesting line of thought. With a planet of 4x the mass of earth, theoretically, it would be able to retain a much larger atmosphere. A larger atmosphere means higher pressures close to the surface, seeing as there's more air pressing down. Even if less air were present, because it is being held by a planet's gravity, it would not expand to fit the allotted container. In fact, the planet's mass would hold the air closer to the surface, which would still result in an atmosphere denser than a planet's with the mass of Earth. Perhaps not 4x as much, but the difference would still be felt. Just something I was pondering...


"Many of the arguments you've made here are rather contradictory to observed symtoms..."
Ah, and I am guessing you are referring to my mention of nausea and such. I was looking back over my bit there, and realized that I neglected to mention that those symptoms are usually felt, and dissipate, within the first 24 hours. Nicknamed, 'Space Sickness'. However, I did feel they deserved mention. At any rate, the miscommunication was my fault, and I apologize. :P

"...mineralogical differences due to the composition of their version of trees, but as they generally don't take this into account elsewhere in SW (I've literally never seen it mentioned in all the books, comics, and such I've read, not to mention my time on wookieepedia) I doubt that would come into play here. "
That's because nobody else has decided they want trees with PURPLE FIYAH!!! xD hehe. I want purple fire... 'twas mostly a random example, due to my fetish with the colors different chemicals burn... roffle. It tends to lend me bias. I do concede your point, however. ;) Aaaaaanywho...


"Now, before you start yelling about how in-depth all this is..."
Oh, heavens no! I adore this stuff! I do see your point about the ionizing radiation, and to you I concede it. Very well-made argument on your part, I might add. ;) Learn something new every day. ;D


Creating Sculpture out of trees is feasible, yes, but we have not even delved into the realm of grand-scale architecture. Trees, at their core, are organisms. They are subject to things like heat; even cockroaches burn sometime. By the time one genetically modified a tree (or other plant) to be impervious to this level of heat, it seems to me that the tree would be far too inorganic to even be considered a tree anymore. And one must also consider that the techniques you presented for the creation of infrastructure from trees involves growing the trees in the air. For a tree to be large enough to actually maintain structural support of a hanger, or a building, I'd think the equipment required to shape the tree would be huge. Amazingly huge. So why create a set of huge, environmentally harmful equipments, when synthetic materials, assembled in a non-obtrusive manner would be much more practical, efficient, and would have the least effect?

I do concede, however, that the effect on an already genetically-engineered environment would be predictable. Even so, I question the practicality of the whole set-up, for the Eldar seem like a practical race. If a plant is not going to reproduce, as you stated, it looses its purpose; for the purpose of a plant is to propagate its genes to the next generation. (Evolutionarily speaking, of course.) To take away its reproduction would be to deprive it of its environmental impact. Which is good, except for the fact that it becomes little more than an inorganic building material. Thus being said, the plants would still serve to convert carbon dioxide into oxygen. That would be a merit. Even so, I ask why go to this monumental amount of effort, when one can create a synthetic building with the same environmental footprint, and put the effort to planting all those trees in fertile form, so that said trees can propagate?

The eccentricities of a long-lived race are interesting, and I understand that. This is one of those points where I believe you could explain away the science all day, and I'd continue to argue the practicality. Thus being said, the main thing I'm trying to dispute here is not the technology (or lack thereof), per se, but more the SW feel. We want to protect the SW aura, the SW feel. And the truth of the matter is, these sorts of sculpted tree-houses absolutely reek with a fantasy feel. X) They bring to mind elves singing songs to oaks in the forest, growing them into proper shapes, with magic whispering in their every touch.
Which is great. I love it. For fantasy. But SW is sci-fi, and in my most humble opinion, the Wookiees' tree-houses are a hell of a lot cooler. X) Which is a roundabout way of saying, I find the plant-based infrastructure to be entirely the wrong feel. This is, however, an opinion, and may be disputed. However, I wouldn't be surprised of others felt similarly. It is a facet you might find not-worth-it, but if you're willing to claw it out, well, them more power to ya. ;)

[Ashi]

Not at all! I'm actually quite impressed. It's rare for someone (let alone a young woman) to be able to keep up with me when I start going scientific, the fact that you were able to follow me thru the detailed radiation commentary (despite being watered down somewhat by means of paraphrasing) is more than a small testament to your ability to understand basic physical phenomena.

Besides all this, 'twas merely a mildly flirtatious/chiding (one and the same to me >.>) comment made while I wasn't paying attention to grammatic structure. I had intended to imply that you weren't geek and had no claim to the title if you're unable to research stuff to support your arguments.

But, onto stuff that's a bit more relevant to the thread we're chatting in. Now, let's see here.... Aah yes. The comment about colony worlds was actually intended to provide support for the racial experience in dealing with rapidly changing environments, particularly in reference to gravitational forces. It doesn't defend against muscle atrophy at all, because there isn't a defense against it, it's a simple fact of life. I will, however, point out further complications in the process due to the density of the muscles. If you've every spent the time to bulk up and then loose it, you'll note that the density is the primary change in terms of endurance, with the bulk being the other thing of serious note. The first thing to be lost is density, with bulk following to try and maintain an equilibrium. In other words, the bigger your muscles in the first place, the slower the obvious rate of decrease.

And, you'll note, until this dystrophy is mostly completed, they are going to be quite a bit stronger than the average human, by about four times initially with a steady reduction as the atrophy takes it's course.

Actually, the wiki article is only mildly relevant, as are many of the concepts it presented. It was intended to familiarize you somewhat (if you hadn't been already) with the effects of microgravity upon the human form. This situation is a good bit less relevant, however, as there is an issue with there actually being gravity present in significant quantities. My current line of research into this area has met with only limited success, most of which being cardio-pulmonary issues and muscle/bone atrophy, both of which we're both familiar with.

I was actually somewhat more concerned with the problems present in the pressure of the cardiovascular system. From what little I've uncovered on the topic, it resulted in an increase in blood pressure by about 15, 20% which, while significant, doesn't mean much. We're talking about significantly larger numbers all around when moving from 4 g's to 1 g than we are in going from 1 g to .17 g.

The notes about the pressure differential are referring to the difference in atmospheric pressure in going from sea level at 4 g's and sea level at 1 g. The rather significant difference in nothing but pressure would result in mostly the same symptoms. Were there a very significant pressure difference as well, it would be more than a little problematic in terms of oxygen absorption. I see from your reply that you hadn't considered this until I mentioned it. Many of the symptoms you mentioned in terms of a shifting gravity are directly related to pressure as well, which is how it was brought up.


Onto the next one :P Let's see here.... contradictory points... alrighty then. Actually, no. While it's true that the space sickness is rather contradictory, I was actually pointing more towards the effects of microgravity used in an environment that still had gravity in significant amounts. The whole point of that line of reasoning, mostly the stuff about apollo, is that there can't be an accurate comparison between microgravity and reduced gravity. The effects are similar and related, but there are a number of pointed diffences, not the least of which being a reference point as 'down', the most commonly associated part of space sickness. It was more my fault in not clearly explaining my thought processes, however, than yours in communicating your intent. I've got practice sorting people's minds out, I keep forgetting not to expect the same >.<

Hehe, pyrotechnics are amusing.....

w00t! intelligence! :P I've spent too long studying the effects of radiation on a biological system >.< I wrote a bloody thesis paper on the subject, should I be able to find it >.>

and the final points: It's aesthetics. I concede the point, but keep in mind that that was one of the few differences between this version of elves and about a dozen elven stereotypes I can name off the top of my head. Most of them build stuff in the style of nature or around nature, not make nature build stuff for 'em >.>

[Ashi]

Not at all! I'm actually quite impressed. It's rare for someone (let alone a young woman) to be able to keep up with me when I start going scientific, the fact that you were able to follow me thru the detailed radiation commentary (despite being watered down somewhat by means of paraphrasing) is more than a small testament to your ability to understand basic physical phenomena.

Besides all this, 'twas merely a mildly flirtatious/chiding (one and the same to me >.>) comment made while I wasn't paying attention to grammatic structure. I had intended to imply that you weren't geek and had no claim to the title if you're unable to research stuff to support your arguments.

But, onto stuff that's a bit more relevant to the thread we're chatting in. Now, let's see here.... Aah yes. The comment about colony worlds was actually intended to provide support for the racial experience in dealing with rapidly changing environments, particularly in reference to gravitational forces. It doesn't defend against muscle atrophy at all, because there isn't a defense against it, it's a simple fact of life. I will, however, point out further complications in the process due to the density of the muscles. If you've ever spent the time to bulk up and then loose it, you'll note that the density is the primary change in terms of endurance, with the bulk being the other thing of serious note. The first thing to be lost is density, with bulk following to try and maintain an equilibrium. In other words, the bigger your muscles in the first place, the slower the obvious rate of decrease.

And, you'll note, until this dystrophy is mostly completed, they are going to be quite a bit stronger than the average human, by about four times initially with a steady reduction as the atrophy takes it's course.

Actually, the wiki article is only mildly relevant, as are many of the concepts it presented. It was intended to familiarize you somewhat (if you hadn't been already) with the effects of microgravity upon the human form. This situation is a good bit less relevant, however, as there is an issue with there actually being gravity present in significant quantities. My current line of research into this area has met with only limited success, most of which being cardio-pulmonary issues and muscle/bone atrophy, both of which we're both familiar with.

I was actually somewhat more concerned with the problems present in the pressure of the cardiovascular system. From what little I've uncovered on the topic, it resulted in an increase in blood pressure by about 15, 20% which, while significant, doesn't mean much. We're talking about significantly larger numbers all around when moving from 4 g's to 1 g than we are in going from 1 g to .17 g.

The notes about the pressure differential are referring to the difference in atmospheric pressure in going from sea level at 4 g's and sea level at 1 g. The rather significant difference in nothing but pressure would result in mostly the same symptoms. Were there a very significant pressure difference as well, it would be more than a little problematic in terms of oxygen absorption. I see from your reply that you hadn't considered this until I mentioned it. Many of the symptoms you mentioned in terms of a shifting gravity are directly related to pressure as well, which is how it was brought up.


Onto the next one Let's see here.... contradictory points... alrighty then. Actually, no. While it's true that the space sickness is rather contradictory, I was actually pointing more towards the effects of microgravity used in an environment that still had gravity in significant amounts. The whole point of that line of reasoning, mostly the stuff about apollo, is that there can't be an accurate comparison between microgravity and reduced gravity without further data. The effects are similar and related, but there are a number of pointed differences, not the least of which being a reference point as 'down', the most commonly associated part of space sickness. It was more my fault in not clearly explaining my thought processes, however, than yours in communicating your intent. I've got practice sorting people's minds out, I keep forgetting not to expect the same >.<

Hehe, pyrotechnics are amusing.....

w00t! intelligence! I've spent too long studying the effects of radiation on a biological system >.< I wrote a bloody thesis paper on the subject, should I be able to find it >.>

and the final points: It's aesthetics. I concede the point, but keep in mind that that was one of the few differences between this version of elves and about a dozen elven stereotypes I can name off the top of my head. Most of them build stuff in the style of nature or around nature, not make nature build stuff for 'em >.>

wait.... is that three concessions? Wow.... I'm either better than I thought or I need to open up with a mildly flirty comment more often.....

Edit:
I probably should have thought about this last line more.... I really don't want to see the results of flirtatious commentary from me on people like Zarkan and Dire Wolf.... the.... there are just a few, minor, issues with that >.<

[Kella]

And I shake my head condescendingly. I might argue that last point of yours, Ashi, but I have nothing to prove. Therefore, I shall devote my energy to sinking my teeth into more important matters...


Yes, the process of the atrophy of the muscles would take time, but you've already mentioned that to the Eldar, a change over the course of 50 years is quick and sudden.

Keeping this in mind, a period of deterioration over the course of 1 year would be like the blink of an eye to the Eldar. This deterioration would be sudden, and quick, in their eyes. The Atrophy would start almost immediately, so when going from a 4G environment to a 1G environment, atrophy would be felt within a few days. It's simple mathematics, and while you may mention the initial strength, if you want your race to be acceptable, you will need to remove the bit about them being 4x stronger than humans.

Even though the effects upon the muscles are less pronounced in microgravity, than in decreased gravity, the mechanics are still the same. (more on that later.) Atrophy occurs because of disuse. If someone on earth were to life a 20 pound weight every day until it became second-nature, their muscles would adapt. However, if they suddenly only started lifting a 10 pound weight every day, and did this for a few months, they would find the 20 pound weight quite difficult to take up again.

A similar process would occur if they lifted no weight. The science is the same. Disuse causes the deterioration of muscles. However, with no weight, the effect would simply be quicker and more pronounced.

Regardless of whether we are talking microgravity, or decreased gravity, the problem of Muscle Atrophy, and decrease in strength is still there simply because of the science and mechanic of the whole thing. We don't need the testimony from the moon, because we can follow the pattern, and see how the science applies.

This is also true of skeletal deterioration. The osteoperosis of the bones would still occur, as the body reabsorbed un-needed calcium. Now, this argument does not bear as much weight in concern to the Eldar, seeing as a skeletal structure developed to withstand 4G would certainly be different, by its very nature. However, if it is assumed the bones are supported and strengthened by Calcium, they would still deteriorate where they are not needed. We humans, as of yet, have not been able to find a way to reverse this deterioration of the bone. Perhaps the Eldar have, but it is a scientific process that would need to be explained and supported. Otherwise, any Eldar that spent an extended periond -- say a simple, quick 50 years -- on another planet would be severely weakened upon returning to the home planet. A milennia away? Your bone's'll break like toothpicks.

This skeletal deterioration needs to be addressed in the biology of the Eldar. It could result in some interesting social divides, seeing as those away on colony worlds might be unable to return.

Also, the muscular atrophy needs to be addressed in their strength. While 1-2 years (which still strikes me as a very slow deterioration, more on hat later,) for full adaptation may seem a substantial time to younger races, it's an intense shock to the Eldar. Also, by simple math, the Eldar would only be 4x stronger than a comparable human in a 1G environment until the muscle atrophy sets in, which is very, very quick. Again, this needs to be edited and addressed in their biology.

Now, during the period for full muscle atrophy to set it, the Eldar would be experiencing a number of problems associated with their adaptation, which would hinder them from actually making use of this disproportionate strength. I.E., a rush of blood to the head. Bloating due to decreased atmospheric pressure. Maintaining a safe heartbeat. Etc, etc.

You keep re-wording your argument concerning atmospheric pressure, for you have said the pressure is not four-fold, implying it's average pressure, and yet you seem to be agreeing with me on the density due to gravity. In any event, I shall address the problems proposed by differing pressure. Gives me something new to think about, at any rate.

Differing pressure: If, as I have previously reasoned, the atmosphere of the Eldar home planet is more dense than an Earth-Atmosphere, the effects on circulation would be especially accentuated when moving into an atmosphere with an earth-comparable atmosphere. The Eldar would experience expansion and bloating of the blood vessels, especially the upper extremities. Oxygen retention, as you said, would be greatly impacted. With some pressure present, I do not believe their blood would boil. However, they wouldn't look so pretty with their faces mildly swollen, and quite red. ;) This would be an intense strain on the body, and further prevent easy transit between planets.


Now, I'm a big-picture sort of person. As much fun as debating small points and trivialities is, I do enjoy coming around to the primary point.

I get the feeling that putting the Eldar on a planet with 4G was to make them four-times as strong as humans, when on a planet with 1G. As earlier stated, debated, and mentioned, this extreme gravity does you little good at all. In fact, the adaptation it forces is a much, much greater strain on the body than would be practical, simply for giving your race super-human strength. This 4G planet causes many, many more issues than advantages. So, instead of wriggling out from under the hammer, just to keep an 'advantage' that doesn't really do the Eldar any good at all, I'd recommend doing away with the 4G aspect completely. It really has no effect upon this history of your people. There are too many finer points in the history of your race, to have it all wasted, overshadowed, overpowered by a simple OP attempt. There are two things your battling against here with keeping the strength: Science, and the Mods. And I assure you, the former obviously won't help you much against the latter, for the latter are far more stubborn, and far more entrenched in Sci-Fi technicalities. This is, of course, my recommendation. I do not have the final word. However, I find this circumstance pointless, the 4Gs sadly not as effective as would have been hoped. I doubt anyone will think any less of you if you re-work that whole thing.


Microgravity vs Decreased Gravity: The argument that emerges from this dust cloud is simple: Atrophy occurs due to disuse. Not microgravity, not reduced gravity: disuse. The body will only use the muscle mass it needs to use. We, on earth, are accustomed to using the amount of muscle mass specific to our gravity. In microgravity, less muscle mass is needed, because less force is needed. In decreased gravity, less muscle mass is needed, because less force is needed.

See what I'm getting at? Even if you go from, say, 3G, to 1G, you will only use as much muscle mas as you need. You will only need to use the muscle mass required to combat 1G of force. The muscle mass you used to use for the 3G will atrophy, due to disuse. This is exactly the same process that occurs in astronauts. While you would retain the use of more muscle mass by going into decreased gravity, than going into microgravity, the mechanics are still the same, and the science still applies. You will only retain the muscle mass you need. I.E., you will only retain the muscle mass required to function in a 1G environment.

Now, I was trying to find an article on the advanced processes behind muscle atrophy, what connections deteriorate, whether it's a breakdown of the connections from the brain to the synapses, or whether it's due to the tryponin complex not accepting the calcium properly or--- ah, well, I'm rambling. Anyway, that's a wordy way of saying, what follows is my speculation:
I would assume that since each muscle fiber is the same, and exerts the same amount of force, disuse would not weaken individual muscle fibers. It would simply cause specific muscle fibers to atrophy, to deteriorate, preserving only the needed ones. This leads me to believe that all muscle fibers atrophy at the same rate, if they are in disuse. For example, if you had two bushels of apples, and you took five from the first bushel, and ten from the second bushel, and put these in refrigeration, the remaining outside apples would all decay at the same rate, regardless of how many of their buddies were in the fridge. This would lead me to believe that regardless of the situation, muscle atrophy occurs at the same rate, but 'stops' sooner, due to more muscle mass retaining use.

I find it prudent to mention/point out that muscle atrophy does not only occur in microgravity. It occurs every day, due to simple disuse. Those who have sedentary jobs, or teens like myself who spend ours in front of the computer, ;) witness this first-hand. (Though I do make it a point to get out and do something, thankkaverrehmuch.)

All the above being a lengthy way of stating that my previous arguments hold water. The muscle atrophy is effected by disuse, and disuse can be estimated/predicted, to an extent, in lesser-gravity environments.


Symptoms: As far as symptoms go, many of them are due to disorientation. Some, however, are not; take, for example, the headaches. Increased and unusual blood flow to the brain can be quite uncomfortable, as can be observed by hanging upside-down on the monkey-bars for any extended period of time. X) This isn't the strongest argument on my part, I shall admit. However, whether invented or factual, you need to describe and identify the serious symptoms of pressure change and gravity change on your race.


'It's Aesthetics,' you say. 'It's originality', I say. Perhaps my particular stubbornness here is that I've read, and adored, the Inheritance Cycle, by one Christopher Paolini, in which the elves use their magic to sculpt their dwellings from the trees and plants. Perhaps it made an impression. At any rate, I insist that this architecture belongs in a fantasy genre, and not in Science fiction. It does not have the properly SW feel, as previously mentioned, and as such, I personally consider it unacceptable. If you want a nature loving race, snag a Wookiee or an Ithorian, or even a human from Alderaan. I am somewhat protective of the SW feel, and would rather see something new, and fresh.

Thus being said, I shall move on to something that I've been meaning to mention: I like the premise of this race, I really do. The history is fresh, and solid. However, I am willing to fight the biology of this race to the death. I, personally, would find the whole thing much better-suited to a non-humanoid race. Because, you see, there's a bit of an issue with the whole early development of sentience...

If they went along every link in the chain, from sea animal to primate to humanoid, the grace of their aquatic ancestors would be lost. If they evolved quickly enough to retain their aquatic grace, they would not look humaniod. So you pick one or the other. You pick the aquatic grace, or you pick a humanoid appearance Your choice. Why not come at this with a biology completely new, and different? With a sentient creature much, much more reminiscent of their aquatic ancestors? Tentacled beasts that walk on land, flying mammilians that bring to mind Manta Rays, a strange, serpentine race, a-- Oh, do excuse me, my imagination is running away from me again...

However, I see that you have the potential to make a meaningful and original race. There is a golden opportunity here, and I don't see why you're so reluctant to take it.

[Ashi]

/sigh. I apologize. I was not intending to be rude or perverted, and my joy at finding someone capable of actually understanding, not to mention carry an intelligent conversation on/in, physics carried my professionalism out the window. A naturally playful mindset, which I'm continually reminded can be taken as flirtatious by a rather jealous (she admits it) fiancée, also complicates my perspective on things. Once more I apologize for appearing precocious and making unwarranted assumptions.

Onto less trying areas where I don't have to remember mannerisms and maintaining a certain level of decorum >.>

The whole concept of muscle and bone degeneration is one that I agree with wholeheartedly. I've said that. I'm also fully aware of the fact that it's disuse, not anything else that has the largest effect on the rate and manner of this degeneration. That commentary was directly in relation to actually everything else in regards to the line of questioning, such as blood flow, oxygen absorption, rate of muscular decay (it won't decay as fast in the presence of limited gravity as it will if there isn't gravity, as you're still using the muscles to some extent in limited gravity) and everything else, not the fact that decay and all that would happen. I can name to you now over a dozen sources that list atrophy as one of the symptoms of a changing gravity.

For the whole concept of the high-pressure system, I'll point you to my first postin this topic under the section titled "details on the homeworld" which was edited in after I realized in my second post in this topic (in reply to Meira) that I hadn't posted the details of the planet up here, despite having worked it out. I quote: "The planet Eldar orbits a blue supergiant star at about 350 million miles (about 590 million km). The gravity of this world is about four times that of Coruscant, resulting in a moderate increase in surface pressure and other classically noteworthy occurrences. The only moderate increase in pressure (which is about 7 psi) over 'normal' atmospheres is due to the fact that the Eldarian planet doesn't have as much atmosphere as most Terran planets. The gravity, coupled with a slightly higher (by about 2%) presence of oxygen, counter this thinner atmosphere, resulting in a relatively normal environs, save the gravity and blue star. It should also be noted that the atmosphere of Eldar has only a limited Ozone layer."

Under normal circumstances, you'd be entirely correct in assuming that a planet with this kind of gravitational pull would have a far denser pressure build up via basic physics, but I anticipated and countered this when I first started writing about them.

The last matter of asthetics vs. originality will be addressed via PM, as my answer will be deeply personal and should not be stated openly.

[10Tickler]

Just going to make a Quick point here that I haven't seen really mentioned in my scanning.

Aging happens because of Decay that happens in Genetic Data every time a Cell Replicates. You have to remember, Cells Split on the Subatomic Level, and the DNA/RNA does the same, The split's not going to be perfect.


That said, Having a Superfast Metabolism will only age them quicker.

[Kella]

Telomeres! ;D I was thinking the same thing, but I'd forgotten the name of the particular chromosomal caps, and so I looked it up. And then I found a recent article in a Medical Journal, which said that the shortening of Telomeres is not associated to the cease of cellular reproduction. Rats, for instance, retain very long telomeres for the entire duration of their lives, yet they still die after about three years. *sigh* I was quite disappointed, because I'm quite fond of Telomere science...

Unless, of course, you're thinking of something other than telomeres, in which case my commentary is irrelevant. X)

Ah, and Ashi, I had not read your new details on the planet. Still, my intent here is to bring it around to the bigger picture, and my final arguments, which have been previously stated. I noticed that you did not parry several of them, so I shall leave them to be pondered. ;) With the reach of a stalemate, I believe my work is done... now it's up to the mods. Mua ha ha. I shall fetch them. Eventually. Oh the woes of being absent-minded... X)


Addition: If anyone's curious, that article about telomeres can be found here. :P

[Ashi]

Well, I must say that the article took me back a year or two (been a long, long time since I've studied biology) but I'm sure you know it's both more and less complicated than that. That is indeed a significant portion of the aging process. It has an obvious effect, even if we're not exactly sure how. To break down the article, telemeres are a molecular 'end cap' that forms the zipper-like portion on DNA and is an integral part of the DNA replication process. Similar pieces are also present in DNA (tho I don't recall the names. I might even have 'em backwards >.<) The article suggests that its the shortening and damaging of these (due to common factors occurring in the elderly) that causes increased susceptibility to disease and genetic diseases (such as cancer).

But there's another part that's more commonly known and is usually taught in basic biology courses everywhere. As complicated as it is for a complex molecule to break itself apart, make a new molecule, and then put itself back together again, it's astounding that there aren't more errors. Significant errors, when they do happen, are often repaired by the cell itself, and if it doesn't 'think' it can repair itself it will generally self-terminate. Minor errors are sometimes over-looked. These minor changes start to add up, and after the several hundred trillion cellular replications in an adult's life, it creates problems. This is theorized to be a major cause of cancer, and even if it's not, it still has a more than slight effect on an adult body.

At this point, I'm not even debating this stuff; I honestly don't know how, or if, any sort of genetic immortality is possible, let alone the hyper-specific nature of the problems this race solves. We're not even done mapping the genome yet, let alone manipulating it >.< And I also can't say I've kept abreast of the latest developments in biology, I tend to focus more on biomechanicals. 'Replacement parts', if you will, and the mechanical/physics-related nature of stuff, than I do on the actual biology of it. Everything you hear me spout about how it might work in SW will be mostly scientific opinion (some people call this a hypothesis) based on what I know. I do have brag a bit tho, genetic manipulation in an engineered environs is a pretty good stroke. Little, if anything, happens that you didn't plan for in the original manipulation (at least if you're good at did your testing right ).

[projectsunfire]

Ashi... *shakes his head.* No.

[Dire Wolf]

Aug 18, 2009 22:38:08 GMT -5 projectsunfire said:

Ashi... *shakes his head.* No.

[Talau the Ever-Lurking]

Sorry, but No.

[Ashi]

lmfao. I'm not surprised Not to mention, there's a reason I didn't start the bio before getting disapproval on this.

Gotta admit tho, it's be pretty interesting to RP a char like this in this kind of environs.