Protest against bulky, overweight armors.

[Xef'se]

Is obesity a problem? Yes it is. This forum is suffering from the insane notion that bigger is better, in the wrong place. Armor. Heavier armor is encumbering and bulky, and 160 pounds is nigh on impossible to wear for extended bouts of combat without it being power armor. And by power armor, I mean fiber-bundle muscles aiding strength, climate control, sealed to the environment, computerized HUD. Mjolnir-IV armor from Halo.

Current modern day body armor, characterized by kevlar vests with pouches to put boron-carbide plates in order to protect vital organs, weighs between 16 and 20 pounds, and that would be at least "V" rating. The Flak Jacket, (Probably an III or IV in our armor rating) was 25 pounds.

This site: www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/interceptor.htm

And this site: www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/body-armor3.htm

Are two of my sources. The Interceptor Body Armor system utilizes kevlar vests which can stop a 9mm bullet at point blank range, and boron-carbide ceramic plates which can stop up to 7.62 mm rounds repeatedly at point blank range.

"It weighs 16.4 pounds; each of the two inserts weighs 4 pounds, and the outer tactical vest weighs 8.4 pounds" (quote from the first link)

They are currently working on ways to take this 16 pounds, considered bulky, heavy, and ineffective for extended bouts of combat, down to hopefully under 10 pounds. Don't you think that in the Star Wars universe, wherein exists the lightsaber, something that with our technology requires a room full of complicated machinery to duplicate once, they'd be able to get an advanced armor that is either lightweight (between 5 and 15 kg) or equipped with synthetic muscles/muscle support systems? The answer is yes, there probably would exist lightweight advanced armor. For example, the Verpine Zal Alloy mesh is similar in many ways to the Interceptor Body Armor system, utilizing Zal Alloy mesh with ceramic plates at specific points. Yet according to the unofficial rules in place it has to way 75kg to be accepted, despite a lack of any special equipment.

Is Star Wars tech in any way advanced when it relies on armor that is essentially bulky medieval platemail? No. It isn't.

I propose that we do away with the preconceived notion that 160 pound armor is the best way to go for heavy armor. Maybe if you're creating SPARTAN-II supersoldier armor, sure, but a simple Kevlar-esque mesh with ceramics?

For the sake of a Star Wars effect... ;_;''

[sparrow]

A few comments...

Modern infantrymen wear about 40-50 pounds of body armor. This includes front and back plates, the side plates, as well as the vest itself. Once you throw in the rifle, ammo, and othe misc supplies, then they generally end up carrying about 70-80lbs of stuff.

Yes, the armor you described is quite effective against bullets. However, remember that star wars also has blasters, which are considered for the most part to more much more damaging than than bullets. Here's a quote from wookieepedia from the page on slugthrowers:

"As blaster usage increased, the popularity of personal armor declined - while extremely effective against most slugs, even modern armor could not stop a direct blaster hit, and as a result the wearing of bulky or cumbersome protective gear seemed to offer little benefit, while still obstructing movement. Thus, the blaster arguably increased the usefulness of the slugthrower."

This means that in the SWU, kevlar + ceramic plates isn't quite the winning formula it is around here.

(does make me wonder though how those stormtroopers got taken down by ewok rocks... your guess here is as good as mine)

In-universe, the best heavy armor is generally accepted to be full-body Mandalorian plate, which is pretty much medieval platemail. And it's weight on the site should probably be changed to be similar to that of medieval platemail, which is in the ballpark of 30kg.

By the way, while it's important to have "realism", it's my belief that since star wars is science fiction, there are other keywords that are just as or more important when it comes to judging characters and tech. The ones you'll probably hear me throw around more often are "internally consistent" and "not dumb."

[Xef'se]

Eh, my resources I think are different from yours. Mine say ~16-25 pounds of body armor, and the interceptor system is the one being used over there in Iraq right now, and that does include front back and side plates. Add ~5 pounds for a helmet and a few more for knee/elbow pads and you've got modern infantry armor. Also, methinks that my resources are correct, as they're being used out there right now.

Where did you get your resources?

[sparrow]

Eh. I just typed "how much does modern infantry gear weigh" into google, which took me to yahoo answers ( answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090411123120AAqOkVQ ). Not the most reputable source, I'll admit, but since several of the answers claimed to be army infantrymen or marine that served in Iraq, I took their word for it. One of them does mention the Interceptor.

[Xef'se]

OK, so we differ on the specifics, but bottom line: No one in their right mind is carrying 160 pounds of armor.

[sparrow]

Definitely. I think most of the armors should probably have their weight halved. That way the heaviest ones would go from 80kg to a more reasonable 40kg. I think the main point I disagreed with you on before was concerning the types of armor in the SWU.

[Xef'se]

Mmk. Just as another reference:

starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Armor

Typically medium armor was a lot similar to current U.S. Military armor, with Kevlar-esque vests and ferro-ceramic plates.

edit: ANYWAY, trim the fat off of our armor!

[Zarkan]

A large component of the weight of are armor would be the necessary computer and life support systems for the full body armors of which most are. That said your more than welcome to make lighter armor/Partial armor if you would like we're just running under the impression that most armies here are using full body atleast partial EPSO armor and most people wanna stop sniper and heavy blaster round :/

[Xef'se]

Then shouldn't armor SAY "computer systems+life support systems" in other if you're gonna count weight for them? The assumption that they're automatically included isn't exactly an accurate one.

For example, using the armor that I know best, my Zal-Alloy mesh is largely torso with zal-alloy protecting most of the legs, and some ceramic plates protecting certain spots, and a helmet is optional. The Zal Alloy mesh can protect from nigh on all slug-throwers and dissipate most energy bolts due to its make. Not all armors need computers or gadgets, some are just armors. If you're going to run the armor section effectively, you're going to have to remove quiet a lot of assumptions.

[Darksword]

Hmmm this is a interesting conversation....

Well I have to agree with both sides. Armor weight -should- be lowered, maybe by not a whole lot but by at least 1/4 or maybe even a 1/2. Now I shall just stay silent for the moment and continue to observe.

[Karl the Unfettered]

From Wookiepedia:

While the material was nearly indestructible even to lightsabers, it was surprisingly light. This was due not only to the natural properties of the metal, but also to Mandalorian metallurgy.

Beskar is supposed to be lighter than other metals, so what's with the heavy Mando armor suits? I expect one could make a perfectly servicable 20lb suit of full body armor out of the stuff and be nigh invincible, if the metal was worked and molded properly.

Seriously, this is Star Wars. They have shielding units and stealth field generators, for pete's sake, both in relatively abundant and cheap supply at the time of the KotOR games, so why wear heavy armor anyway? Wrist-mounted shields and stealth belts are lots cheaper and easier to wear, and much higher in availability as well.

[sparrow]

From wookieepedia:

While never widespread during the Jedi Civil War (usually being issued to small, elite strike teams) the technology eventually disappeared almost entirely. Little information exists as to why, but Admiral Carth Onasi was heard to speculate that in the future blaster technology might "catch up" to shield technology. As blasters became increasingly effective against shields, producing effective shields would most likely become increasingly difficult and expensive, until it was no longer feasible to build shields for everyday use.

Shield use was never abundant and cheap and later fell out of fashion.

Never says that beskar is lighter than other metals. It's just that folks would expect that such a strong material would be heavy, and are surprised that it isn't. Even if it is lighter, it ain't by much.

[Karl the Unfettered]

And yet, 4000 years later you have personal shielding once again, common enough for recharge stations to be scattered about here and there (as seen in the Jedi Knight games).

That still doesn't explain why in KotOR 2 every other thug and their mums had a wrist shield unit or two on them you could loot. And it's still bloody ridiculous to have 100+ pound armor suits unless they're powered as well, since anything over forty or fifty pounds is just too much for someone without supreme physical conditioning to wear about on them.

[sparrow]

"The Imperials think I'm somehow immortal, but I just have a good supply of power cells."
―Kyle Katarn

You'd think that if it was common, the imperials would know. Kyle Katarn gets shields because he's Kyle Katarn.

The technology was by then very expensive and mostly limited to extraordinary individuals, such as the mercenary/Jedi Kyle Katarn and his student Jaden Korr, Imperial General Sk'ar, and a Ben Kenobi-impersonating Imperial agent.

In Kotor every vibroblade has a cortosis weave too. It's a handwave explanation so that melee weapons don't become completely useless when you get your saber. Even in-game, Mando armor is heavy stuff.

Gameplay mechanics and story mechanics don't always go hand-in-hand. Or did Revan really spend half her quest time searching through plasteel containers? Luke had a flamethrower during the Empire Strikes Back. Just ask the SNES games.

Yes, I agree with you that 100+ pounds is pretty insane, which is why I'm more of a fan of about 30kg for heavy plate + standard on-board electronics.

[Xef'se]

Though it's true, I remember the thugs' mums having energy shields. They also had lightcanes

[Necro Stormborn]

It doesnt matter hulks like ARK and Jorgun culd be as heavy as needed and stil pwnzoor everything =)

[Scow2]

I think the problem with the armors is that though the unit is kilograms, we are thinking in pounds. Even the Sith Recon armor, which is supposed to be a light armor, is ridiculously heavy (44 lbs!) considering it is essetially thin ceramic plates over heavy cloth, with a few heavier sections for the numerous electronic components. Speaking of which, onboard computers wouldn't increase the weight of heavy armors, since they'd have to be replacing denser metals to accomodate them.

Switching the current units to pounds (don't modify the actual value), and then converting that to Kilos would result in more realistic weights. If it goes above 30 kg (the weight of medival full-plate armor(MFPA), which is metal at least 3 mm thick (thicker than it sounds) at its thinnest, followed by several cm of heavy padding. I think that even the heaviest Star Wars armors do not have 100% plate protection, especially if the plates are even thicker than MFPA, instead opting to protect the joints with thin, flexible cloth-like lightweight mesh instead of interlocking, precision-crafted plating, and the underlay can likewise be significantly thinner and lighter. The exception would be those with strength-enhancing underlays of Powered Armors like Stormtrooper/Clone/Mandalorian armor.

[Cavalry King]

"Revan was male. Where have you been?"
- Jedi Exile to Atton Rand

I also believe that a matter of Units has come into play here. Despite several years of Physics and Chemistry, the metric system still isn't totally obvious to me. I am always converting back and forth for reference.

Since SW armors are quoted the Kilos I have difficultly relating that to its actual mass.

[Vex]

May 12, 2009 21:43:41 GMT -5 Xef'se said:

Eh, my resources I think are different from yours. Mine say ~16-25 pounds of body armor, and the interceptor system is the one being used over there in Iraq right now, and that does include front back and side plates. Add ~5 pounds for a helmet and a few more for knee/elbow pads and you've got modern infantry armor. Also, methinks that my resources are correct, as they're being used out there right now.

Where did you get your resources?

Take it from me. I've spent the last seven years wearing the gear. They say the armor is only 16-25 lbs, but you've got to up it slightly. The weight of the gear is dependent on the size of the wearer. A larger wearer requires more kevlar and larger plates in order to provide the same amount of protection on a larger person. The 16lb weight is for a small to medium size person and I doubt they weigh it with the DAPS (shoulder pads) and the like. Also, that also isn't figuring in the additional side plates they came up with later to add on or the 7.62 AP (Armor Piercing) Protection plates they replaced the standard ones with. The side plates equal about 4-5 lbs together. I'm 6 ft 1. My gear, simply consisting of the vest, plates (front, back, & sides), no throat or groin flap, is 31 lbs. Add the DAPs, throat, and groin it is just under 35 lbs.

When you start adding gear, it only gets heavier. Basic combat load of ammunition for a rifleman is 210 rounds, or seven magazines. One magazine roughly equals 1 pound. You also, at a minimum, have a personal medical kit. Depending on the makeup, you are looking at roughly 2 pounds there. Also, water. Standard issue Camelbak systems for soldiers are the 3 liter variety, ie: roughly 6 lbs of water.

Add in the helmet, which is about 3-3.5lbs depending on size, 8-10lbs for the uniform and boots, and weapon weight of about 7 lbs and you've got the following for an "average" soldier:

IBA w/side plates & etc: 20 lbs
Ammo and kit on IBA: 15
Uniform: 8
Helmet: 3
Weapon: 7


So the ballpark figure for basic issue starting weight is roughly 50+ lbs for a small to average person. This doesn't include a mimimum 3 day assault pack with extra ammo, food, and hygiene in the event they are going out for longer periods. Also doesn't include the fact that most carry extra ammo and other items on their person for expediency sake and ease of access.

(Yes, we are running close to Medieval Full Plate weight)

I for example, as a M203 gunner last deployment, carried 12 magazines, 10 rounds of 40mm HE for said launcher, portable radio system, and other sundries necessary. And yes, having weighed that too, it goes to about 75-80lbs depending on what I decided to bring with me at the time.

With proper training and conditioning, you can move around in it. However, you are not going to be agile in any sense of the word. Infantry on patrol with rucks can carry about 100-120lbs of gear total with the pack. They get into contact, they have to drop the pack if they want to be at all agile. There's a reason why they are trying to design new gear, weapons, etc that are lighter. You are less effective with that much weight. It fatigues you. You can't react as quickly. If you wear it, you wear it for the duration of the mission it is necessary for. You are not, I repeat, NOT going to go kick back in a cantina with said weight on (unless you are extremely self-loathing and masochistic), unless said armor is powered and therefore you aren't dealing with the entirety of the weight by yourself.

Elite units often strip away any unnecessary gear, using plate carriers and the like or no armor if stealth and speed are necessary.

So yes, we are running on the heavy side her in SWRP. It's fantasy, it's fun, but let's try to keep some things realistic so as to complement the fantasy side of it. Even with beskar, it's impractical to have a full plated version like medieval full plate). Indestructible? Perhaps....but your reactions would be limited and you run the risk of being overwhelmed and brought down.

There's a reason why most plate armor is either ornamental or used on horseback. It wasn't fun trying to move around with it on your own.

Just thought I'd throw some real experience and my own thoughts into this most interesting discussion.

[Talau the Ever-Lurking]

all I can say is "well dayum" *blink blink chuckle*

go get 'em vexmun ^_^